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HomeTech Articles > Alternator System Troubleshooting

Guest Technical Article:

Alternator System
Troubleshooting
James K. Thorusen
entropy@hughes.net
Special Thanks to Dave Darling (dave@pelicanparts.com)

Editor's Note:  Refer to the current diagram in the 'electrical diagrams' section of this website to follow along with Jim's article.

    There are four connections to the alternator itself. D+, DF,D-, and B+. If you look at the Haynes book, what is not readily apparent, but is true nevertheless, is that the set of diodes that connect to the D+ terminal are a duplicate set (except for lower curent rating) to the ones for the B+ terminal, which is the actual high current output of the alternator. The D+ terminal is therefore a duplicate output terminal of the alternator, with less current capability. The lower set of diodes on current track 80 is common to both the D+ and B+ functions, and forms the ground return for both the B+ and D+ outputs. The DF or "Dynamo Field" terminal connects to the ungrounded end of the alternator field winding, and is an input to the alternator. The current supplied to the DF terminal determines the strength of the magnetic field that penetrates the output windings, and thus controls the alternator's output. The D- terminal is connected to the alternator frame, and is the ground return for the voltage regulator. The other end of the field winding is also connected to ground at this point.

     The Bosch alternator is incapable of self-excitation, or "boot-strapping" itself to an operating condition. Older DC generators and some U.S. alternators have residual magnetism retained in the core, or some other scheme to get enough field current to get themselves up and running. The Bosch alternator uses a different scheme. The charge warning lamp is connected between the ignition switch and the D+ terminal. When the car is first started, there is no output from the alternator at either the B+ or D+ terminals. The voltage regulator, sensing no output, is attempting to command maximum field current... it effectively shorts the D+ and DF terminals together. This places the D+ terminal close to ground potential, because the resistance of the field winding is not large. This means that there is +12 volts on one side of the charge warning lamp, and the other side of the lamp is grounded through the alternator field winding. Current thus flows through the lamp, lighting it. This same current, however, also flows through the alternator field winding, producing a magnetic field. This magnetic field is what the alternator needs to start up, and if everything is working correctly, that's exactly what happens. The alternator now begins to develop identical voltages at the D+ and B+ terminals. The D+ terminal is connected to one end of the charge warning lamp, while the other end of the lamp is connected to the battery via the ignition switch. Since the B+ terminal is hard-wired to the battery, and since both the D+ and B+ diodes are fed from the same set of windings in the alternator, no voltage difference can exist between these two points. The warning lamp goes out.

     The voltage regulator "watches" the voltage at the D+ point, which should be the same as that applied to the battery. It now changes the short between the D+ and DF terminals into a variable resistance. This effectively controls the field current (whose source is now the output from the D+ terminal, and not the charge warning lamp) and thus regulates the output voltage of the alternator.

     Fault conditions: When something happens to the charging system that causes it's output to be insufficient, the result is almost always a net voltage difference across the charge warning lamp, causing it to light. For example: Suppose an output (B+) diode opens. The efficiency of the main output is now considerably reduced. The voltage regulator does not know this, however, because it is looking at the D+ point. So, the B+ output is now lower than the D+ point and the warning lamp lights. Let's say that one of the D+ diodes failed: The D+ output is now reduced considerably. This means that the voltage regulator will have difficulty in maintaining sufficient field current for normal output. The field regulating resistance is low or short (between D+ and DF terminals) and the resulting load on the crippled D+ system drops it's voltage well below the battery voltage. Therefore, there is a net voltage difference across the charge warning lamp and it lights.

     The bottom line is that in order for your light to light, you must have a net imbalance in the outputs of the D+ and B+ sections of the alternator (or between the D+ output and the battery voltage, which amounts to the same thing).

     To trouble-shoot the problem, you need to check the various sections independently. Thus the first check: Connect +12 volts from the battery to the DF terminal on the relay board. This is the maximum field current situation, and should result in maximum output of the alternator. Note that this checks the B+ diodes, the alternator windings, and the common diodes. It does NOT check the D+ diodes.

     To check the D+ portion of the system, it is necessary to find out if the D+ output can produce enough current to drive the alternator to full output. To do this, short the D+ and DF terminals on the relay board. This will provide the maximum field current to the alternator that the alternator ITSELF can supply (not the battery, as in the earlier check) and so checks the remainder of the circuitry. If this test puts the light out, then the alternator is good, and the trouble is elsewhere. If it doesn't, then the alternator is almost certainly bad, with one other possibility:

     In the Bosch system, the size of the charge warning lamp bulb is critical. Too low a wattage bulb will not supply enough field current for "bootstrap" operation to be reliable. The Bosch book that I have states that the lamps must be at least 2 watts for 12 volt systems. If you have replaced your charge warning lamp recently, then too small a lamp may be your culprit.

I hope this is of some help.... Good Luck, Jim T.

Regards,
Jim T.
entropy@hughes.net

Comments and Suggestions:
AussieShaneComments: Have a 97 Toyota Hilux 2wd 2.4lt ute. Mechanic Recently replaced Alternator with new one. Unfortunately the previous alternator was drowned in oil from a leaking timing chain seal bearing which soaked the engine bay in oil. Was told the oil burned the old alternator out and blew the 80amp alternator fuse. Replaced alternator and 80 amp fuse. Am told alternator is charging as required BUT the warning lights on the dash battery/brakes still remain on. the lights arent as bright and are lit to half bright. What could be the problem???
November 28, 2011
al Comments: 2000 chevy blazer. new alternator, battery good 2 yerars old won,t take charge. com
November 20, 2011
LouComments: Wayne, do you supply the bearing for alternator for 2000 323i.I believe the E46 & E36 323i and 328i use the same alternator and is it that difficult to disassemble and reassemble? It makes a clacking noise, like bad lifters or valves needing adjustment. I checked both, the sound appears to most definitely coming from the alternator.
October 11, 2011
txtwinComments: I have an 89 911 and while driving the stereo amp will cut in and out. At night, this happens to correspond with all the lights on the car dash and running lights dimming at the same time. Cruising on the freeway, this doesn't happen, but does resume once I am in stop and go traffic. The battery is brand new, and while idling the alternator is charging to 13.4v. If the car isn't driven frequently, the battery will drain within 2 weeks of sitting. Is it a bad alternator, or a bad voltage regulator? If not, any ideas?
September 15, 2011
BillComments: If an alternator "passes the Auto-Zone bench test, does that imply that all of the diodes are properly functioning?
September 9, 2011
eztuner12Comments: How do I know the proper Voltage regulator for my Valeo Alternator. My car VIN # AS71156
Part # please
Thx
September 1, 2011
eztuner12Comments: Hi Wayne
First, I have been extremely pleased with my purchases at Pelican and the services provided by you team force, keep up the good job!
Today on my way to replace the oil filter housing gasket & o-rings I first had to remove the Alternator but at the time I was unbolting the Alternator rear side bolts in order to remove the 2 wires, thick red wire & thin blue wire, the base screw where the blue wire is bolted broke off from the inside area platform of the alternator, certainly the bolt was extremely tight, but the bolt that holds in place the red wire as very easy to unbolt, This Alternates has never been removed since the car was new. I sent a message to your tech support in order to find out if the rear section under the black plastic covers where the wires screws are attach to the Alternator can be replaced and if it can be done to forward me the part number.
On the other hand if the case is that I have to swap for a new Alternator, “which I hope not” I am planning to go for a “Bosch High Output Alternator”, since I read on the Bosch site that it can deliver amperage output up to 200 amps, while also providing maximum available amperage at ”low engine RPM”.
I think this would be a solution to my issue that when my car is at low RPMs @ 800 the head lights & interior lights including the control panels Cluster dims when the A /C compressor, rear defrost or electric radiator fan turns on, even the A/C won’t cool well at this point. My only concern about this Bosch High Output Alternator is if it would be proper for my Bimmer, I mean it won’t affect or damage any other electronic equipment from the car?
My car as you might know by now, is a 1997 BMW e36 318is/M44 German Version, automatic transmission with a Downing Atlanta Supercharger I installed a few years back. The car has @ 34,000 original Kilometers @ 21,250 miles. VIN # AS71156
I would value and appreciate form you any suggestion regarding my issue & dilemma about the Alternator
Certainly looking on for your reply and help…
Have a great day!
Cheers,
Richard
PS A pic of an Alternator with the 2 fix screws were the wires are to be hold bolt. The one that broke from its base is the lower small one.
July 21, 2011
ArmandComments: I have a 77 Peugeot 504 gas with a Bosch 50 amp alternator
I have a new external voltage regulator with post EX, +
I don't know how to hook up the wires from the alternator
The alternator has 3 post D+. DF, D-
Which wire goes to where?
June 7, 2011
BTComments: I have a component car that is using a 914-4 engine with carbs, and we have basically scrapped the wiring from the donor 914. We are still using a stock 914-4 alternator and external regulator, but I am stumped about how to wire the aftermarket generic car wiring harness to make the charging system work. I have a circuit on the new harness that is marked "Alternator excitor" and it gets 12V when the ignition is on. I was told by the harness maker that I am supposed to tie this wire in to the DF terminal, so I spliced it into the green wire between the regulator and the alternator. I have not installed any alternator warning light, and I think that is the problem. The questions are:

Does the alt excitor power go to the DF or the D+?
If I need an alt warning light, where does it go in line to the D+ I would guess.

My guess is that the alt. excitor is supposed to power a warning light and go to the red wire between the regulator and alternator the D+ wire.

We got some smoke from the external regulator with our current setup when we ran the engine, so I am pretty sure I need a new regulator, I am just hoping to get it right the second time!
June 1, 2011
watiffatedComments: Hi, I need your help to troubleshoot my alternator. The light did light up, I change an new alternator new regulator new battery, connection is fully right after many round check. At certain time it charge but at certain time it don't. I using a 24v vehicle. So what will the best way to troubleshoot it ?
April 19, 2011
cathyComments: battery new alternator rebuilt new regulator . i will run 914 4 1970 all day . once i put on light radio it will not charge car will die . then i have to keep two battery one for back up and this stink ,tranny ground good firewall ground good . someone sad there is a way of turning up volts on alternator or regulator how ? and charging light on dash red light ? help
April 13, 2011
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Sounds like it's only trickle charging and not fully charging your battery. This is indeed most commonly caused by a bad or poor ground between the engine and the chassis. I would check the resistance, and/or try adding another ground strap. There's no way to "turn up" the amps on the alternator unfortunately. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
dhorrnetComments: Battery dies, so i replaced it. The same day the new battery dies. So is that telling it's my alternator?
March 23, 2011
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Yes, that is a good assumption - the alternator is not properly charging the battery. Make sure all the ground straps are properly attached on the engine. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
FiremanComments: Hi great read and very useful. I have a VW transporter that gives battery voltage to the D+ wire until you connect it then its 1.6v regardless of engine running or not. Light stays on and no charge. Make up a wire direct from battery + with an inline bulb and this extinguishes when the engine starts and new alternator charges fine?
February 3, 2011
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: I'm not a super alternator expert, but I believe that you will see this behavior when the diodes in the alternator fail. The light will sometimes stay on all the time, and you may even run your battery down from the light being on all the time. The solution is to replace the three or so diodes in your alternator - I think that will fix your issue. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
JCoopComments: My 84 targa rpm gauge fluctuates wildly-and now has seemed to settle down but is about 400 below normal operating range during idle and shifting sequence. Some suggest it is the alternator, some the voltage regulator. Any help you can provide would be helpful. Thanks
January 13, 2011
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: These tachs can be sensitive, I've seen this behavior when the tach is getting old and needs repair. In general, the alternator or regulator should not affect the proper operation of the tach. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
pickleboatsComments: Hi
2001 E46 new alternator new battery.Car has no alarm system. No alternator output and No battery light when you turn on ignition and run . Any sugestions? There is also 12 volts at each of the terminals on the small connector connected to the alternator.Bothe the 5 am and 7.5 amp fuse are good. HelP!!!!
December 8, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Hmm, maybe the internal fusable link for the battery got blown somehow. There is an internal fuse somewhere in the system that protects the car if there is a major short. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
CLComments: Hello, I have a 1989 E30 320i with the M20B20 six. The car has refused to start completely, after failing to start a couple of days ago. In the first instance, it cranked after about half an hour of waiting.

Today, however, the battery light remains on when the key is turned on and nothing happens when the key is turned to start. The battery has been replaced and the roadside assistance man was able to get it started by bridging a connection on the starter motor.

None of the dash lights besides the battery light illuminate when the ignition is turned to on, not even the service indicator.

Any ideas on what could be the cause of the problem?
December 1, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Odd problem. I would start by checking the ground strap, and also check the resistance from the battery terminals to the power bus of the car and the ground. I'm not sure in 1989, but on many of the later cars, there was a "master fuse" or sometimes called a "fusible link" that broke / burned out if there was a short circuit across terminals in the battery. I would start looking in that direction. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
m330xiComments: when i start car cold makes a wiening noise till car worms up then stops sounds like bearring in alternator can i get bearing kit for it or just buy new one
November 28, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: If you have an alternator shop nearby, sometimes they can rebuild the unit with new bearings, but often it's just easier to replace the unit. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
ThangamaniComments: 1.Alternator terminal voltages RN = 245 Volts
YN = 246 Volts BN = 245 Volts Measured with Digital Multimeter at No load
2.Generator Control panel input terminal Voltage Before switching ON OCB terminal voltages RN = 285 Volts
YN = 287 Volts BN = 267 Volts Measured with Digital
Multimeter at No load


While connecting a 20 HP motor Motor failed to run. How the voltages has been increased?. How it is possible? What may be the fault? How to check and correct?
November 15, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: No clue, this obviously is not an automotive application. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
BMW Comments: BMW 1984 325e still having the same problem checkd for chassis ground looks good to me .but I order some new relay .just incase that's the problem.
November 14, 2010
ThangamaniComments: In the alternator terminal voltages are measured and found correct. But at the Control panelinput side side the voltages are increased by 20%. How it is possible? What may be the fault? How to check and correct?
November 14, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: I'm not sure. What were the voltage numbers you were measuring? - Wayne at Pelican Parts
motoslipstreamComments: To hamish914

I had a problem with a "no alternator light " situation.

traced it to a by-passed alarm module ; hooked module back up and wala ! light back on !
Sincerely , vikingrat
November 14, 2010
Chris325eComments: BMW 1984 325e Problem charging, new battery and new alternator car still dies.
November 12, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: I would check to make sure that the engine ground strap is attached to the chassis. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
Hamish914Comments: Alternator warning light doesn't light when ignition switched on.
Bulb works
12+ at D+ at connection to alternator
New Alternator and Regulator fitted
Eary strap connected on transmission
What should I see on DF? Should I see 12+ or earth?
Any suggestions as to problem?
November 7, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Shoot. I thought I had my Bosch alternator book here at home, but I can't find it! If the alternator light is not coming on at start, then it sounds like it might be an internal diode problem. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
JamieComments: 1988 911 Carrera. Do you recommend a rebuilt bosch or one of the new high output alternators $ ouch. I've not had any issues with the stock bosch until recently it is over charging and boiling the battery. Are there any marked advantages to the high output? Any reliablitiy issues with the rebuilts I've had problems with rebuilt starters? Sorry for all the questions.
October 27, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Both are good quality units, just that one is rebuilt and one is brand new. We have gotten a few returns on the rebuilt units but none on the brand new ones. They are very nice. - Wayne at Pelican Parts 
roye melloComments: hello wayne, 2nd hella reg gone bad, but 2 diff cars, good batts & gounds , never jump started bought forshop stock about 2 yrs ago. i installed a bosch reg & no issues - whats up with hella ?
hella part # 5dk00424115, 84 & 87 bmw 325's 80 amp
September 23, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: There's probably something in your electrical system that is causing these problems. It's not likely that the regulators are all bad, but they are probably being overworked or overtaxed (like the rest of us) and failing prematurely. Not sure what the problem could be, but the pattern is probably likely to continue. Maybe the alternator diodes are bad? - Wayne at Pelican Parts
HandsomeComments: Sometimes the light comes on if I am cornering a bit too hard, I watch the guage real close when this happens. Sometimes it goes out by itself but always if I shut the car off and restart it. What do you think is going on?

Ian Stott
Moncton
Canada
August 31, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: I wouldn't worry about it, at lower rpm, it's not uncommon to see the alternator lamp come on, particularly on older cars where the grounding isn't that great. I have a similar issue on my 1972 911. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
peterComments: my alternator is chargin but it is not chargin the battery
August 9, 2010
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Have the alternator tested, have the battery tested, and check the engine / transmission ground strap too. - Wayne at Pelican Parts
Hamish914Comments: Hi.

Re the following statement-what should i see if working correctly? I am not sure if I should be be measuring a voltage and if so where. Can you clarify. Thanks.
Thus the first check: Connect +12 volts from the battery to the DF terminal on the relay board. This is the maximum field current situation, and should result in maximum output of the alternator. Note that this checks the B+ diodes, the alternator windings, and the common diodes. It does NOT check the D+ diodes
June 5, 2010
supermanComments: have you ever change the germanium diode in a rectifier bridge on a bosh alternator
October 5, 2009
 Followup from the Pelican Staff: Probably best to let a shop do this, or at least have them supply the diodes...- Wayne at Pelican Parts

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